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m&m

Lifting primarily for size gains

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High Intensity Training really got its origins from Arthur Jones, the inventor of Nautilus equipment. In the early 70's, everybody copied Arnolds programs, seeing he was winning all the comps, everyone aped the leader.

 

At the time, Arnold was doing around 20 sets per bodypart, training 6 times a week. He built what is considered by most the best physique of all time. No argument from me, I would give anything for that physique, as would most lifters on the planet, which is why his training ideals were and are popular.

 

One thing I did notice though is, even though there are millions of lifters in gyms training like Arnold did, why arent there thousands or even hundreds of Arnolds around. Sure we have big guys, always have, even back in Arnolds day, but no Arnolds.

 

Arnold looks like that because of his genetics. Copying him or any other pro is a mistake, unless you posses their gentic make up. Arnold simply did what worked for him. The truth is, Arnold could have achieved his physique much quicker by training smarter.

 

The traditional 6 days a week 20 sets per bodypart training to me is like a version of cardio for bodybuilders. Just like sprinting is a more effective form of cardio, so too is HIT for bodybuilders.

 

HIT is an extreme way of training that requires at least 2 training parteners. You lift 3 times a week training the whole body, very draining, or 4 times a week in a split, easier.

 

You only do 1-2 working sets per excersise, 2-3 excersises per bodypart. The set is taken to momentary muscular failure, then forced reps, negatives, rest pause is added. You move onto the next movement for that bodypart quickly, keeping the intensity up.

 

Dorian Yates, Casey Viator and Mike Mentzer trained this way. I have watched Mike Mentzer do a set of curls in Golds Gym Venice that blew my mind. I didnt know it was possible to train that hard.

 

The downside to this training is it is very hard, physically and mentally, there are no easy sets, ever. Knowing there will be great discomfort every set is very hard mentally.

 

The upside is it is the most effective way to build muscle, and you spend very little time in the gym.

 

I have done it twice. Once in the early 80's, it lasted around one month before I caved, but I was using spotters from random guys in the gym, and once in 1991 that lasted a few months. I got great gains in strength and size this time. It wasnt long after that I benched 165kg and squatted 205kg. During this period was when I squatted 125kg x 20 and 130kg x 17. I was doing one set of squats 3 times per week.

 

If anybody is interested in doing this training let me know, you will need to have a training partner, I can be the third wheel for spotting. it is imperative that there are 2 spotters at least, negative squats with 200kg is hard :yes:

 

 

Here are some pics of Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates and Casey Viator.

 

Mike was the first bodybuilder in history to get a perfect score at the Mr Universe, Dorian won a million Mr Olympias and Casey wom Mr America at 19yo

mikementzer14hy.jpg

Dorian_awesome.jpg

casey_viator_005.jpg

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When I eventually venture to Melbourne, in like flynn, it will be a problem finding me a training partner though....

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so for people that want to train like mike do you get free speed and steroids :lol:

 

but seriously it makes sense. body don't give a shit if it doesn't have to change. my workout is nothing like what you are suggesting but ever since i changed from a 3 days split to a 5 day slpit things have never stopped improving. more work = better results.

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It would help, it f**ks with you mentally.

 

This is actually LESS work, but harder. Same principal as sprinting is more effective than jogging.

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Mentzer looks awsome!!!

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hmm, yes. yes 180GO i concur.

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lol minus the mo he looks awesome hahaha he looks like a 70s porn star

 

lol minus the mo he looks awesome hahaha he looks like a 70s porn star

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lol minus the mo he looks awesome hahaha he looks like a 70s porn star

 

lol minus the mo he looks awesome hahaha he looks like a 70s porn star

 

whats wrong with being a porn star? :lol:

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I have Simon and the good doctor coming around to lift tonight, I might see if they are keen to try a heavy duty workout for the upperbody tonight seeing as Simon's knee is still not 100%.

 

They can post up their thoughts afterwards.

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I have done some reading up on Mentzer before, interesting stuff.

 

Taken from Wikipedia

 

Mentzer was also known for his adoption of the approach that "a calorie is a calorie", and would often torment bodybuilders who were strictly dieting, by freely eating Danishes and other off-limit foods close to competitions.

 

 

While Mike Mentzer was serving in the US Air Force, he was working 12 hour shifts and then follow that up with 'marathon workouts.' In his first bodybuilding contest, he met the winner, Casey Viator. Mentzer learned that Viator trained in very high intensity (very heavy weights for as many repetitions as possible, to total muscle fatigue) for very brief sessions (20-45 minutes per session)and infrequent training sessions. Mentzer also learned that Viator almost exclusively worked out with the relatively new Nautilus machines, created and marketed by Arthur Jones in Deland, Florida.

 

Mike Mentzer befriended Jones and his long-term studies led to the conception of the Heavy Duty Training Principle. This training course (books and audio tapes) sold through bodybuilding magazines were extremely popular, beginning after Mentzer won the 1978 IFBB Mr Universe contest. In fact, he was the first bodybuilder ever to receive a perfect 300 score from the judges.

 

Mentzer's system is based on the principle of "intensity" as emphasized by Arthur Jones. According to Mentzer, biologists and physiologists since the nineteenth century have known that hypertrophy is directly related to intensity, not duration, of effort (Mentzer 2003;39). Most bodybuilding and weightlifting authorities do not take into account the severe nature of the stress imposed by heavy, strenuous resistance exercise carried to a point of momentary muscular failure.

 

For more than ten years, Mentzer's Heavy Duty program involved 7-9 sets per workout on a three day per week schedule. With the advent of "modern bodybuilding" (where bodybuilders became more massive than ever before) in the early 1990s, he ultimately modified that routine until most of his clients were doing only 2-5 sets per workout and training once every 4-8 days.

 

Sample Mentzer training system (take 4-8 days in between each workout, so legs are worked twice in a 16-32 day period, and other muscle groups are trained once each in a 16-32 day period):

 

STRUCTURE: workout a. legs

 

workout b. chest and back

 

workout c. legs

 

workout d. delts and arms

 

SAMPLE ROUTINE: example a. squat 1x12-20

 

example b. incline press, pulldown, deadlift or shrug; one set each

 

example c. leg extension/leg press superset; calf press

 

example d. side lateral, reverse pec deck, preacher machine curl, dip.

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M, are you able to post up what the workout would be like? Would love to give it a go if I get an additional 2 spotters.

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m&m what do you think about the Nautilus equipment? is it any good for a machine? the gym i go to have this brand of machines and was wondering what they are like.

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They are not too bad. The pads on the Body Solid ones are softer though, feel real nice when you sit down or lie down.

The Bodycraft machines are pretty good also though, as the cable is lubricated, so it feels real nice and smooth when you push/pull the weight, feels like your not lifting anything at all.

Best of the bunch would be the Golds Gym machines. I know alot of guys that only use them and they are big boys, so they must be doing something. Also,the leather on the benches are made from rare white skinned blue-eyed tibetan llama skin....feels really nice and soft.

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I've used the original Nautilus gear back in 1990 at Golds Gym in Venice, pretty sure their isnt any of it floating around anymore, Arthur sold the business awhile back. When used the way it was intended, it was the best stuff around. You didnt just do 3 x 8 on it like a BB, it had to be used the way Arthur intended.

 

His son bought out Hammer strength gear back in 1989-1990. That stuff was awesome. The recent stuff I used was crap, same as the recent Nautilus gear. As far as I know, some gyms have odds and ends, but back then Golds had the set, and for pure bodubuilding with zero functionality, it did the job, but very very few used it properly.

 

Rice, you kind of need to see the workout. The 2 spotters do as much work as the lifter. It can be very dangerous if done incorrectly.

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My brother has been blabing on about this 4 a while now... he has explained nothing but good results so far... Esp the Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty Training... goes 2 gym 3 times every fortnight...

 

But something i find rather interesting, as 1 of the points which most of these people all agree is that u dont need 50 gazillion grams of protein a day, or a crapload of food in general... a well balanced diet is all that is required... the ONLY protein shake i take it 1 before going to gym... so my muscles have a steady stream of protein until i eat dinner (which is usually shortly after my workout)... for me im steadily increasing in weight (weight on the bar, not the scales - usually 2.5kgs a week) and gaining visible size... however i haven't subscribed to the same training regime, but i try to be as intense as i can!

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My brother has been blabing on about this 4 a while now... he has explained nothing but good results so far... Esp the Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty Training... goes 2 gym 3 times every fortnight...

 

But something i find rather interesting, as 1 of the points which most of these people all agree is that u dont need 50 gazillion grams of protein a day, or a crapload of food in general... a well balanced diet is all that is required... the ONLY protein shake i take it 1 before going to gym... so my muscles have a steady stream of protein until i eat dinner (which is usually shortly after my workout)... for me im steadily increasing in weight (weight on the bar, not the scales - usually 2.5kgs a week) and gaining visible size... however i haven't subscribed to the same training regime, but i try to be as intense as i can!

 

it's no proclaiming that you don't need to eat lots and get plenty of protein. training 3 times every fortnight? id be interested in the results for that... not sure how good they will be?

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My brother has been blabing on about this 4 a while now... he has explained nothing but good results so far... Esp the Mike Mentzer Heavy Duty Training... goes 2 gym 3 times every fortnight...

 

But something i find rather interesting, as 1 of the points which most of these people all agree is that u dont need 50 gazillion grams of protein a day, or a crapload of food in general... a well balanced diet is all that is required... the ONLY protein shake i take it 1 before going to gym... so my muscles have a steady stream of protein until i eat dinner (which is usually shortly after my workout)... for me im steadily increasing in weight (weight on the bar, not the scales - usually 2.5kgs a week) and gaining visible size... however i haven't subscribed to the same training regime, but i try to be as intense as i can!

Post a pic

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He is right, if you can do it properly, you should only be able to lift every 4-8 days, its that hard, especially if you train the whole body.

 

As far as protein goes, please dont forget Mike took a f**k of a lot of steroids, he told me himself. Mike always proclaimed diet was over rated, but he never lifted clean. He died young, as did his brother. His brother Ray was a top flight pro Bodybuilder as well, he was so fat in 1990, needed 2 seats at restaurants. I guess he changed his mind about eating lol

 

I have just put Nina through one of these workouts. Now you know Nina trains alot, and moves good weight, so she should be fairly conditioned.

 

We did upperbody on Monday, this morning we had to do lowerbody, and she was in agony, her chest, lats, triceps are killing her, like she was a novice.

 

Her lowerbody workout consisted of 7 sets total, will be interested to see how she pulls up. It was brief because of the intensity, it only took 5 minutes exactly, and because she was drained. Even though she did no lowerbody work since Saturday, she had zero energy.

 

I feel this was due to the effort she put in on Monday, thats why you need long breaks between sessions.

 

Unless you've trained like this you really dont know how hard it really is. Nina dreads them.

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so is that what you need? speed and roids? because i'm not trying to say this wont work without them. but before i changed my workout i used to train to failure EVERY workout. i used to try and destroy the muscle every time. i woud literally drop my reps until i could no longer do 1 rep. i trained 3 days a week. i can clearly remember my chest being sore for a full 7 days until id train it again.

 

my workout changed a bit more and eventually i then read a big thread coming from you about training frequently and forcing the body to adapt. i altered my workout to suit. 5 day split. muscles don't get 7 days of sleep. progress has never stopped since that point.

 

until i'm on roids and speed i don't think id go down a similar route again... so probably never!

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so is that what you need? speed and roids? because i'm not trying to say this wont work without them. but before i changed my workout i used to train to failure EVERY workout. i used to try and destroy the muscle every time. i woud literally drop my reps until i could no longer do 1 rep. i trained 3 days a week. i can clearly remember my chest being sore for a full 7 days until id train it again.

 

my workout changed a bit more and eventually i then read a big thread coming from you about training frequently and forcing the body to adapt. i altered my workout to suit. 5 day split. muscles don't get 7 days of sleep. progress has never stopped since that point.

 

until i'm on roids and speed i don't think id go down a similar route again... so probably never!

 

That isn't exactly what i would class as going to failure.

Personally I would stick with a heavier weight and get a spotter to give you at least another 10 assisted reps after you can't do any solo.

Then drop...and repeat

 

The way Mentzer trained was not for the faint of heart, took lots of cajones.

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Thats right Adam, you use a heavy weight, do one set to positive failure, then forced reps, then static failure, then negatives till you can no longer control the weight, one set, cant be done without 2 spotters. Drop sets are a piece of piss in comparison, my clients do them on a regular basis.

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i c. i don't train to failure anymore either :/

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there is muscle failure and complete muscle failure.

 

Muscle failure is when the muscle cannot contract for the given weight.

 

Complete muscle failure is when the muscle cannot contract.

 

;)

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Post a pic

What is posting a pic going to do? I personally have nothing to prove and all i have done is expressed how this type of training CAN work, whether or not it will work for you is anybodies guess, but everybodies body structure is different. Ideally you should listen to your body, open your mind to the fact that there are more than one way to train, and trying different ways can just well prove beneficial! Please note, im not taking a crack at you, or even suggesting you dont have an open mind or anything else i might have said, i just find it amusing that people instantly want photo's to prove a theory. Why not just try it out for a few of weeks? Trust me, as Marcos said, its not easy if done properly!

As far as protein goes, please dont forget Mike took a f**k of a lot of steroids, he told me himself. Mike always proclaimed diet was over rated, but he never lifted clean. He died young, as did his brother. His brother Ray was a top flight pro Bodybuilder as well, he was so fat in 1990, needed 2 seats at restaurants. I guess he changed his mind about eating lol

Im not forgetting Mike took steriods, im just relaying thoughts that Mike and even Arthur Jones (whom you've claimed to be a genius) have hypothesised:

It is the author's fourth contention that nothing in the way of a special diet is required . . . so long as a reasonably well-balanced diet is provided.

 

It is the author's fifth contention that the use of the so-called "growth drugs" (steroids) is neither necessary nor desirable ... on the contrary, repeated tests with animals and double-blind tests with human subjects have clearly demonstrated that the use of such drugs is strongly contraindicated.

Im not saying you should eat just the bare minimum, but eating protein excessively instead of having a well balanced diet is rediculous, and surely is dangerous for your health!

 

PS. Did i use the word hypothesised? :ph34r:

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Not dangerous at all, liquid meals are actually easier for the body to digest.

 

What Arthur and Mike said may not always be the truth. Even though I agree in principal with them, I am not a blind idiot, Arthur was selling equipment and Mike was selling his programs and videos, of which I posses one.

 

I'll play devils advocate for a moment. More muscle has been built by doing 4-5 sets of 5-8 reps doing 1-2 excersises per muscle than any other way.

 

Mike and Arthur a dead, so they cant answer, they would probably say if most lifters werent weak pricks they would have built that muscle in half the time lol

 

I like the idea of cycling your training, I believe their is great merit of doing this for 6-8 weeks if you could, maybe twice a year.

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Hey guys just I would post,

 

I am 6spdsx brother and yeah as he said I find this way of training to be the best I have done, I trained consitantly over the last 6 years (I am 30 this year) and have maybe put on 10-15 kg of muscle. Training the 4-5 day a week routine of one body part a night 20 sets or so and then recently getting to a stale point of not being able to increase poundages and always tired, lethergic. So i thought i would give it a go.

 

Found it to be awesome, and also means you do not need to be attached at the hip to the gym, i am going in at a 3 day a fortnight training session and it works. (It took me a few months to get used to the not going to the gym everyday thing, but now i am there).

 

After reading Mike mentzers books it occured to me that he is spot on. My body needs more time to recover, and then by giving it the time it needs you can then also grow and continue in this manner. (Would recommend anyone to get hold of his books and read them giving them a broad mind).

 

As for the training, as Marcos said it is very very demanding, i only do 3-4 sets, not including warmup and it takes me a good 3-4 hours to get back to a standard breathing rate and cool down. All this for only maybe 15 mins of actual lifting. It is great. You really need the next few days off to recover from the session, pain usually goes after one to two days then the other days are for growing.

 

Main points are

 

Always make and increase in weight or repartitions per workout, If you can not then check the enough rest has been given. Or the 100% intensity has been applied.

 

Give your body enough rest and recuperation, so do not over train

 

Give no less than 100% intensity to ever lift.

 

And it works.

 

As it is I 107kgs at present, down from 112 and i have lost 2 inches of my waist, my lifts have increased by about 5 - 10 kgs on nearly all lifts and steadily increasing every week.

 

Current workout is

 

Day 1

 

Chest

 

Flyes (either DB or pec deck)

Superset with

Incline Press

 

Back

 

DB Pullovers

Superset with

Reverse grip (underhand) lat pulldown

 

Deadlifts

 

Day 2

 

Legs

 

Leg extension

Superset with

Squats or Leg press

 

Hamstrings

 

Lying leg Curls

 

Calfs

 

Calf raises

 

Day 3

Shoulders

 

DB laterals

Superset

Military Press (Smith or Regular standing)

 

DB rear lateral raise

 

Biceps

 

Straight bar curls

Superset with

Underhand Chins

 

Triceps

 

Triceps pulldown

Superset

Dips.

 

Day 4

Repeat Legs.

 

All sets taken to failure, try to get 8-10 for upper body and 12-15 for lower body.

 

 

As for intensity, usually I get my brother to spot entire way, jusp in at usually 8-10 then after tiny help getting weight up then proceed with 3 negatives, slowly let down.

 

Another way for increased intensity is static holds, which is only possible on a few exercises like leg extension or pec deck, some bicep curl machines, but it is to increase weight buy 5% and then get spotter to help get it up and then you just hold it there until you can not anymore. Mike liked this as it enlisted 100% of the muscle fibres into holding the weight up and the more weight you lift the more intense.

 

 

Sorry for the long post but it is hard to summerise this type of training cause against conventional wisdom it is completely different. This is very bried but may help some people to get an idea about it.

 

Matt

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Not dangerous at all, liquid meals are actually easier for the body to digest.

 

What Arthur and Mike said may not always be the truth. Even though I agree in principal with them, I am not a blind idiot, Arthur was selling equipment and Mike was selling his programs and videos, of which I posses one.

 

I'll play devils advocate for a moment. More muscle has been built by doing 4-5 sets of 5-8 reps doing 1-2 excersises per muscle than any other way.

 

Mike and Arthur a dead, so they cant answer, they would probably say if most lifters werent weak pricks they would have built that muscle in half the time lol

 

I like the idea of cycling your training, I believe their is great merit of doing this for 6-8 weeks if you could, maybe twice a year.

Yeah i changed my post regarding the protein shakes, i concur they can be easier to digest. However having a diet heavily biased towards protein i'd beg to differ...

 

And while your absolutely correct that more muscle has been built doing 4-5 sets of 5 - 8 reps doing 1-2 exercises (which i subscribe to, and am currently performing), have they necessarily attained said muscle in the fastest and most efficient way?

 

Once again, just cause something works, doesn't mean thats the only way to do things, and its not to say its the best way to do things.

 

At the end of the day, as i stated previously, try for what works best for you. At this stage im progressing NOT using this style of training, but the conventional style of training. If i get to a stage where im not jumping up in weight on the bar, then ill be open to try this and many other methods, and continue those until they work no more!

 

Anyway the end :lol:

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